Discussing How DEI Impacts Sales with Cornell Verdeja-Woodson | Episode 10
Welcome to Crescendo Chats: Scaling Diversity & Inclusion. In this series, Crescendo co-founder Stefan Kollenberg hosts conversations with HR and diversity & inclusion practitioners, sharing valuable insights from their work.
This week’s conversation is with Cornell Verdeja-Woodson, Global Head of Diversity for Looker (now part of Google).
Listen to the podcast or read below for the edited transcript.
Stefan: Can you share a bit more about yourself - so that people who might not know you can get to know you?
Cornell: Yeah. I’m originally from the East Coast, and I moved to California about a year and a half ago from New York. My background is in higher education, and I’ve been doing diversity work in higher ed for some time.
I decided to make the switch over into tech about a year and a half ago. I’m recently married and have a little dog - all of this happened in a year. Then we recently just bought a house. Lots of change.
I now serve as the Global Head of Diversity for a company called Looker, which was just recently acquired by Google.
Stefan: How’s the shift to tech been? How does it contrast higher ed?
Cornell: It’s interesting because I get that question all the time. A lot of people think higher ed is really slow moving - and some of that is there. But in my experience, higher ed is very similar to tech. There’s the same level of bureaucracy and red tape. The same politics you have to play. It’s all there, just a different industry.
Stefan: So in tech you look at user growth or revenue growth as output metrics. What are the metrics you look at in higher ed?
Cornell: I think it’s the exact same thing, except we call it enrollment. For example, when you’re trying to recruit students, you’re trying to make sure you get a certain number of deposits and get people to accept their admission. Then during the summer, you have this thing called “summer melt”. Back in the day, students would deposit at one school. Now you have students depositing at 5, 6, or 7 schools to hold their spot so they can make a decision. So institutions will start seeing summer melt and it’s used to determine enrollment numbers that indicate how well the institution is really doing.
Stefan: How does a school ensure a diverse population?
Cornell: It’s very similar to how you do it in the workplace. It’s looking at where you market your institution - which high schools you’re reaching out to, what cities you are in, and getting your school well known. You have to build relationships.
It’s the same thing recruiters do in the corporate world - they have to get out there and find where people of color are or where the women in tech are.
There are many similarities to how things get done.
Stefan: And what is it you love most about the work you do?
Cornell: What I really love is the “aha” moments when you help people. At the end of the day, my job is to educate and is to get people to consider a different narrative. So when I do a training or have a conversation with a colleague and they walk away going “holy crap, ok, that’s not something I ever thought about,” that’s what I’m most proud of.
Stefan: Today we’re digging into inclusion in sales and remote work diversity and inclusion. Can you talk a bit more about how things like privilege and unconscious bias make their way into sales organizations?
Cornell: Sales has historically been - and is still - dominated by straight cisgender men. So there’s a lot of stuff to push through in terms of culture and privilege. We know that when women and people of color, or people who aren’t straight, are applying for these roles, there’s an image of what a salesperson looks like that they may not “fit”. There’s a privilege built in that white men are always seen as the most viable candidates for sales roles.
The bias comes into the hiring process around that image of what a sales rep looks like and the idea of someone else not being able to hang with the boys and be able to “cut it”. There’s also a question about whether people trust certain demographics of people to understand the technical side of a product.
Stefan: How can women or people of color excel in a sales function?
Cornell: That’s a really hard question. I think one of the things is that, no matter your field, relationship building becomes really critical because you end up developing allies and sponsors who know you and know your skill set that can advocate for you. However, I hate that it puts the onus on underrepresented populations to do all the work. There’s also work that white, straight cisgender men can do to break down their bias and understand it.
The other thing is that women, people of color, trans people, queer people - we have to do our best to make sure we’re dealing with our own self confidence so we can show up, know what we’re talking about, and not allow the ignorance of others to break us down. Our focus is about maintaining a strong sense of self-worth.
Stefan: So what about when bias comes from an external partner?
Cornell: That’s another hard one. I’ve toyed a lot with my colleagues on how to do this because I have no control over that external partner or potential client. I could report that person to their manager, but the big question I’m asking is that if someone exhibits that behavior, are they someone you actually want to do business with? That’s a controversial question when there’s money on the line and people have to hit their quotas for the quarter.
But for diversity, equity, and inclusion to be done the way it needs to be done, we have to have our values represented in how we do things and be ready to make that kind of decision about where to draw the line. Silence is an act of acceptance - not saying anything doesn’t make you neutral, it makes you part of the problem.
Stefan: When you’re in these tough situations, are there things you’ve tried that worked?
Cornell: One thing I’ve tried before - when a woman in particular who couldn’t build a connection with a male potential client. I’ve seen it work where a male colleague or manager will step in and say “You’re in good hands and super lucky to be working with her,” and vouching for her in that way. Unfortunately, we know men listen to men differently and white people listen to white people differently. So having a man step in has been of some help. But to me this feels icky because I shouldn’t need to have a man walk in and mansplain how good she is and vouch for her. However, that did help this particular sales rep build a relationship and do her job that we all knew she was fully capable of doing.
Stefan: How have you positioned diversity, equity, and inclusion training to sales professionals?
Cornell: A lot is diversity 101, but I hate the “business case for diversity” conversation. It’s exhausting, and having to connect it with money to get people to care frustrates me. But this is how some people get into the conversation. So understanding that when we’re able to connect with more people, we increase the impact. It’s not one size fits all - you have to have a strategy for how you connect with folks.
Similarly, there are some companies or cultures where you’ll meet for business, but you don’t start off jumping into business. There are formalities and getting to know each other - you focus on the human connection first, then jump into business. The American way of getting down to business is not going to work with every single culture. You’re going to miss out if you’re not aware of the different ways that people communicate and connect.
For example, we just did our customer success summit, where we brought in all of our customer success team. Then we had our sales kickoff and one of the conversations was understanding the culture in which your client or potential client operates. So when you’re approaching that conversation, what do you understand about the company, the way it operates, how it navigates what it’s doing, and what’s on their plate? It requires a lot of energy and time to do research before jumping in, in order to make the most of the conversation.
Stefan: Shifting to remote D&I as a result of COVID-19, are there any new challenges coming up for employees?
Cornell: I think one of the biggest things is not being as connected to their team. We have a lot of people who are very relationship oriented. So not being able to grab coffee or go for a walk has been hard on some individuals. Our diversity team has partnered with our HRBPs to create resources and support individuals - to help create opportunities for people to get together virtually. We also train our managers to be sensitive to that topic.
Then there are our employees who struggle with mental health. Even when they are in the office, the day to day can be different for them. So we’re thinking about how we’re adding extra support for them so if they are forced to be at home, they can get some of that energy from each other.
Things are just different, so we’ve made a big call to our managers and reinforced that point to be kind, be patient, and allow people to take care of the things they need to in their lives before jumping back in. Also give them autonomy to manage their life as it is right now, because they are doing everything at once.
Stefan: When it comes to remote communication, what are some challenges you’ve seen come up around conflict, disagreement, or misunderstanding?
Cornell: We know with virtual meetings you can’t see everyone, and 85% of communication is nonverbal. So we’ve had to help managers deal with conflict and manage it, understand it, create strategies for how we give space for people and be able to articulate what’s going on. We also think about getting to the underlying issues that’s happening so everyone can understand each other.
It’s about asking a lot of questions, having people repeat back what they heard and understood, and being intentional about how we communicate with each other.
Stefan: What specific things have you worked on with managers?
Cornell: We asked managers to consider increasing the check in meetings they have with their teams and not allowing every team meeting to be about business. One of our teams is doing a funny hat day, where every day of the week is a different hat you wear. A lot of companies are doing things like that.
I think COVID-19 is reminding us that life is not all about work. You have to look at your employees not just as employees but who they are outside of that. I think there’s a lot of opportunity to find more empathy, and we’re encouraging managers to get to know employees in a different way.
Stefan: Speaking of COVID-19, you mentioned an article about the privilege of wearing masks. Can you go into more detail?
Cornell: Yeah. The article said the CDC is suggesting wearing masks all the time, which is different from where they were at when this first started. But as a Black man, me walking outside with a face mask or walking into a store with a face mask says something totally different. I think many people think biases take a vacation during a pandemic, but that’s not true. Bias is steeped in how we make decisions and will impact how people get healthcare or other critical attention.
So when I’m outside, as a Black man I have to think about how to make people know I’m not trying to rob anything - I’m wearing a mask cause I was told to. It’s that added layer of pressure and anxiety on top of catching COVID-19, now you have to worry about some cop or store owner reading me differently because of the color of my skin.
A lot of this has to do with socioeconomic status, because many people from racialized backgrounds are hourly workers. If they don’t go to work, they get fired. So they have to risk their lives every single day instead of sheltering in place like everyone else. Not all of us have the privilege to work from home and still keep our jobs, not to mention the people who have been laid off that had no safety net.
Stefan: What topics are you engaging people on right now in your remote training or conversations around these issues?
Cornell: We’re making our diversity conversations relevant for the times. For example, we’re planning to do a couple panels on how COVID-19 is increasing the number of xenophobic instances that Asian folks are facing. So we’re getting two therapists and one individual who wrote an article about this topic to come and talk about what that’s been like.
We’re also doing an article about Black and Latino people wearing masks outside. We’re doing a panel on how COVID-19 is impacting communities of color. So we’re doing all those things that are still steeped into bias and unconscious bias training, but are very timely so people can begin to make that connection of where bias is taking place.
Unfortunately, it’s the people who are not the most educated on the topic who are the loudest voices. So it’s about how we stop those people from spreading false narratives and listen to people who are on the frontlines studying this thing with real data.
Stefan: Even though this is a bad situation, what opportunities do you see for structural and fundamental change, especially around remote work?
Cornell: I definitely think it will change our recruiting systems and how we look for candidates. We have a real opportunity to reimagine how work can get done. Any company or manager that did not believe remote work was a viable way to build a team is being shown that it is possible.
It also opens the gates for even more diversity to enter because people who can’t or won’t relocate can work for more companies. There’s a whole gamut of reasons why remote work can be very viable - we can hire even more people who otherwise wouldn’t have been viable for our positions because we were narrow-minded about what that looked like.
Everyone will need something different. This is an opportunity for HR to sit back and think about all the needs that need to be met - and put things in place now before we get too deep into this new culture and things get hard to fix.
As a diversity professional, we have to be ready to show business leaders how what we do is directly connected to the business. We have to come ready with the database and be diligent in putting ourselves in there, because many won’t automatically get it.
Stefan: And onto rapid fire - what’s your favorite quote?
Cornell: I have it tattooed on my arm: “I come as one, but I stand as 10,000,” by Maya Angelou.
Stefan: What motivates you in life?
Cornell: It sounds cheesy, but making the world better than it was when I first got here.
Stefan: What’s a book or movie that changed your life?
Cornell: Brenee Brown’s book Daring Greatly.
Stefan: Do you have a favorite podcast?
Cornell: When I moved to California, I stopped listening to podcasts - not on purpose, though. I recently started picking it back up and my number one favorite podcast is called The Read. It’s not for the faint of heart - they get very real and very raw on pop culture.
Stefan: What’s the coolest tech product you’ve ever come across?
Cornell: I have to say Looker. It’s a great product that is helping organizations and companies use their data in a way that helps them make better decisions. For a diversity professional, using facts and data to make better decisions is our best friend. We’re trying to help organizations understand that you can’t go off of gut feeling when it comes to diversity issues - you have to know what you’re talking about and read what the data is telling you.
Stefan: How can people get in touch with you?
Cornell: LinkedIn is the best way - I spend a lot of time there. Drop me a message, but don’t be offended if I don’t get back to you right away. But I love connecting with people and trying to support people any way I can.
Stefan: Amazing, thanks!
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